Full Transcript Of Dixie Carter's Interview With Government Officials
Here is a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with TNA president Dixie Carter on Thursday, December 6, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in her company as well as professional wrestling. Carter also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of TNA.
You can also read the interview in PDF file form at the following link.
Mr. Cohen. This is an interview of Dixie Carter conducted by the house committee on oversight and government reform. This interview is part of the committee's investigations into the use of performance enhancing drugs in professional wrestling.
Mr. Cohen. Ms. Carter, can you please state your full name for the record.
Ms. Carter. Dixie Carter Salinas.
Mr. Cohen. My name is Brian Cohen. I'm a member of the majority staff. Ms. Carter, you're represented by counsel. Can your counsel state your full names for the record as well?
Mr. Cacheris. Plato Cacheris and John Hundley representing Ms. Carter.
Mr. Cohen. Let's have the other people in the room identify themselves as well.
Ms. Despres. Sarah Despres with the majority staff.
Mr. Buffone. Sam Buffone, majority staff.
Ms. Safavian. Jennifer Safavian, Republican staff.
Mr. Chance. Benjamin Chance, Republican staff.
Mr. Cohen. Before beginning, I have a few standard instructions and explanations regarding the interview to go over. The reporter will be recording everything you say and will make a written record of the interview. As you give answers, please give verbal, audible answers because the reporter obviously cannot record nods or gestures. I'm going to ask you questions on a particular subject matter. When I finish my questions on a specific matter, I'll turn to my colleagues and ask them if they have any additional questions. We'll make every effort not to take up any more of your time than we need to collect the information that we need. If you need a break at any time, please let us know and we can step out and take a couple of minutes to rest and relax. This is not a deposition. So you'll not be placed under oath. You're required by law, however, to answer 4 questions from Congress truthfully. Is there any reason you're unable to provide truthful answers in today's hearing.
Ms. Carter. Absolutely not.
Mr. Cacheris. I understand we'll be given a copy -?access to the transcript to review when it is completed?
Mr. Cohen. Correct. You'll be invited in — it is usually 2 or 3 days?
Mr. Buffone. Within a week.
Mr. Cohen. Within a week or so, we'll have the transcript and we'll invite you in to review it. You can't take it with you or make copies, but you can review it and make any changes.
Mr. Cacheris. We will probably do it after, the holidays if you don't mind, Brian.
Mr. Cohen. I think that will work okay.
Mr. Cacheris. That will work, won't it?
Mr. Cohen. I'm almost certain it will. I will be asking questions about several Do you have any questions specific documents during today's interview. I'll ask that as we ask those questions, we also put those documents into the official transcript record. before we begin?
Ms. Carter. No, sir.
Mr. Cacheris. What is the confidentiality of this transcript, Brian? It is obviously shared with all of you and your members, I guess.
Mr Cohen. We as a committee, we always have the the committee always has the right to make these kind of interviews public. In this case, that is decided pursuant to committee rules. In this case, we have not made any decision. Mr. Cacheris. No decision?
Mr Cohen. That's correct.
Mr. Cacheris. Okay. All right.
EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN:
Q All right. We'll begin by asking some background questions about TNA wrestling and your role at TNA. First, 6 please state your current position for the record.
A I'm currently President of TNA wrestling.
Q And what are your responsibilities in that position?
A I'm ultimately responsible for everything that happens within the company.
Q How long have you been TNA president?
A I've been president since the spring of 2003.
Q And can you briefly describe your professional experience prior to your current job with TNA?
A Prior to TNA wrestling, I owned my own company in Nashville and moved there at 26 years old and started my own company in the music business and entertainment business and represented a variety of different music acts and worked in the motion picture industry some and represented a few athletes as well mostly in the marketing, PR and promotions side of the industry. But right before this, I was doing management, artist management as well.
Q Okay. If you could just give us a little slightly description of your roles and your day-to-day responsibilities within TNA.
A I was first brought in I was offered the opportunity to take a meeting with TNA wrestling, and quite honestly, I was not a fan of current wrestling products, but I knew it was a big business and so I took the meeting anyway, and was very impressed with the people that were there and it seemed completely out of character from what my perception of the business was. And I took on TNA wrestling as a client and I handled their marketing, PR and promotions when I first started the company. It was a very, very small served, funded company and they lost its funding weeks after its first show quite honestly, and people only gave them weeks to survive anyway. So it was right on time. And then I helped them find an investor which happened to be my family's company out of Dallas. It is an energy company and it was a completely nonstrategic investment for them but they felt like, you know, there was only one competitor in the industry and that there was an opportunity there. And so I continued on in that same role until the spring of 2003 when I was — I moved into the presidency.
Q Okay. Can you walk us through the organizational structure of TNA Wrestling?
A Currently?
Q Uh-huh.
A Currently we finally had some dollars to hire some people to do some stuff. We have the company is — it centers around the creative process. It is — really, we're scripted television. And up until just recently and in our future plans for 2008, we've done nothing but be a television production company. We didn't tour. We held, on 7 8 average, three shows a month all for television purposes. So under that, the biggest part of our group would be the creative guys who write and script the television show. And then we have the production company who — you know, the director, the producers and the truck and then those people. And these are all just day workers for us. But we do have a production crew that comes in on day of show. And we have very bare, like, up until recently, one PR person, one marketing person that we just hired earlier this year. We have a licensing — two people in licensing. We do our toys through Marvel, which does Spiderman and the Incredible Hulk. We have a video coming out in May of '0S with Midway. So that is a division that has grown with us through our television exposure. Then — excuse me, one more, International. We take our domestic television show and then we license it internationally as well.
Q Okay. Can you describe the employment relationship between
A The what relationship?
Q The employment relationship between your talent -?I'm going to ask this question in two parts. First, your creative talent. Is your creative talent, are they full-time staff or are they brought in on a –
A No. They are all independent contractors, but we do have a contract with them. Up until just recently, our 9 talent — when we first started, they were on literally four weeks at a time and we only had a few of them because we didn't know how long we were going to stay in business. And then we signed more. But because we only worked with them if every single guy was on every show which would never happen anyway, the most they could work would be 36 times a year with us which was on average three times a month. But we did have them under contract just where they could not go work for the only competitor that we would care about, which would be the WWE, but we allowed them — there is a multitude of other organizations, domestically and internationally, wrestling companies that they also worked for.
Q Okay. So to clarify, the employment relationship between the wrestling talent and TNA, the wrestlers are considered independent contractors?
A Correct.
Q But there is contractual provisions that -?A Just to prevent them from WWE.
Q And allow them to work with any other organization?
A Correct.
Q How many wrestlers do you currently have under contract?
A Currently we have between 50 and 60. We just signed a big two-hour television agreement with Spike TV which is the biggest milestone in our companies history. So we have 10 just recently acquired more talent to be able to fill from one hour to two hours worth of programming.
Q And what is the typical length of contract between TNA and its wrestlers?
A There is not one set one, but it is as least — we try to on ones we would like to have longer relationships with, I belieye it is one year with two one-year options. Some of them are under contract as show to show.
Q I was going to say, are there short-term contracts as well?
A Very much so, yes, sir.
Q Okay. And can you give us a sense of the pay structure for your talent? What are wrestlers typically paid and what is the range of salaries for your wrestlers?
A This is the confidential part, but — the confidential part, but Mr. Cacheris. She feels it is confidential. So I don't think we're asking for any she'll tell you to answer your question. Ms. Carter. I have no problem you knowing, but just the average wrestling fan. Ms. Safavian. names of individuals. Ms. Carter. No, but they'll know. They'll start off at 11 BY MR. COHEN:
Q To clarify — before you answer this question, I'll again reiterate what I told you at the beginning. The committee always reserves the right to make this material public. Of course, we'll take your considerations into account as we go through those deliberations.
A They are usually paid in — between — I'd say 90 percent of our talent are paid ~per show. There are a few exceptions that are paid more than that, but that is the solid range.
Q Okay. And
A And they're paid per appearance.
Q I was going to say the basis is per appearance.
A So it is not a lot of money. That's why we — you know, they do work outside as well.
Q Okay. You had started to go over this a little bit. Can you walk us through TNA's current schedule, how you're schedule is set up?
A Yes, absolutely. Up until October 4th, we had a one-hour show on Spike TV, and we deliver a 1 hour pay-per-view every month to, like, In-Demand and Direct TV and DISH, where you pay $29 to get the show. On Spike TV, when we had one show, because we were operating in the red, we were taping two shows a day. We film at Universal Studios in Orlando. We were taping two shows a day. So we 12 would film two l-hour shows. When we went to the 2-hour format on October 4th, we couldn't do 4 hours of taping in one day. So now we do if we have a pay-per-view, it is Sunday and then we'll tape Monday, Tuesday. So they go to Orlando and we'll tape Sunday, Monday, Tuesday there. And then we'll wait 2 weeks and then come back Monday, Tuesday. That's on average what we do.
Q So how many shows — yoqr typical wrestler, how many ;. > ????,,_. I s1' Ira lIiflill they do in a given year?
A For us?
Q Uh-huh.
A The most they can do if they are on every single show and very few are on every single show would be 64 now. Ms. Despres.
A year? Ms. Carter. Yes, ma'am. BY MR. COHEN:
Q And typically on a given show what — how many wrestlers I guess it is changing a little bit because you are going to 2 hours. But say a 2-hour show — now you've got 50 to 60 on a contract.
A typical 2-hour show, how may wrestlers will YQu use?
A A typical 2-hour show, you might have as many as 40, maybe a few more on the show where half of them or more than half may not wrestle, but they'd be used in the scripted story lines to further character development and things such 13 as that.
Q Okay. What is TNA's annual revenue?
A This year we should do — it would be $15 million. And I would like to check that number. I'm not –
Q And can you walk us through the sources of that revenue?
A Absolutely.
Q Just in a general sense giving us how much they cog~ribute to the company?
A Absolutely. The licensing fee from Spike is a majority of that. We have pay-per-view licensing and international licensing and then we have merchandise and toy sales and things such as that. And the first three would be the majority of our income, you know, pretty much evenly split. Maybe a little more in television rights.
Q Okay. And you've got no Live Gate component of your revenue? It is
A Well, we've toured so few times, what we'd call a house show, which is a nontelevised show. It is something we want to do. Up until this point, we have been mostly a television production company, but we want to get out there and start touring. But you have to create the demand first. It is a very expensive business. So our goal in 2008 is to tour. And we have tested the waters in a few markets this year before we get out there next. 14
Q Okay. And with regard to your television ratings, what is TNA's prime demographic?
A We hope our prime demographic is men 18 to 34, but men 18 to 49 is really what Spike TV is looking for and what we have a tendency to deliver the highest demo in.
Q Okay. Are adolescent males and adolescents in general an important demographic for TNA?
A They are not at all to the network. Really they just look at that 18 to 49, really 25 to 34 is their key demo that they're going after, you know. But to us, we're kind of — we call ourselves Shakespeare to the masses. So it is really — you know, we pride ourselves on being a family friendly show. So we're trying to get the grandparents back to bringing their children. Where, you know, I would not let my children watch other product necessarily, we try to make it where, you know, it appeals to all ages.
Q How do you do that? What is your — how would you describe the differences between say the WWE show and a TNA show?
A The pay-per-views have a rating of a TV 14. So your pay-per-views have a tendency to go a little bit more, be a little bit more violent in like a brutal type of match, like a cage match or you'll see things such as that. But on television, we bleep out our language. We film at Universal 15 Studios. We are a park attraction. So if that gives you any kind of guidelines of what we have to follow, that is pretty much — that sums it up to me. It is us and Shrek and Dora and Twister. So there is a little of everything in there.
Mr Cohen. I'm done with this set. Anybody else have anything you want to add? EXAMINATION BY MS. DESPRES:
Q Can I just go back to the demographics? One of your sources of revenue are toys?
A Uh-huh.
Q Can you describe what kind of?
A It is mostly collectibles, action figures. And I don't know if any of the men around this table admit to having any. But it is really — it is more in the collectible side where guys keep the toys and they keep them in their boxes and then they increase in value and things such as that. They're not as much, you know, play toys as more collectible items.
Q And who is the target audience for those items?
A Well, collectibles are a much older demographic. I mean, they are probably — I mean, they are more grown men. I mean, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s even. Have you seen the 40-Year-Old Virgin with that man that has all the toys? I 16 mean, that is kind of — that's our audience.
Q And what is the pr~ce point for those?
A It just depends. Some are, like, 9.99 and some get up to $29. They are not real expensive because they collect in mass. I mean, those that collect have a tendency to get everything that is out there. BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you know what percentage of your viewership is in the 13 to 18 or
A It would be 12 to 17.
Q Approximately?
A 10, 15 percent. And I'd really have to go back and check viewership. But I know that a majority of our ratings are 18 to 49. Actually our median age on our show since we started two hours I think is 39 years old. And that fluctuates each week a little bit especially since we're newer. Once it gets into more months, it will stay within a year or two.
Mr Cohen. Okay. Ms. Safavian. I don't have anything. Mr. Chance. Nothing.
Mr Cohen. All right. Next set questions is going to be on TNA's hiring practices. Ms. Carter. Hiring, okay. BY MR. COHEN: 17
Q How do you recruit talent for TNA?
A How do we recruit talent? There is a finite group of wrestlers that are out there.
A majority of them work for the industry leader, obviously WWE. So you have two options when you're a company such as ours and that is to go over who is not currently under contract with them or to find new talent. And developing new talent does not obviously sell. You know, it is not real popular and it is not going to draw your ratings and it takes a while to develop. So now that we have hit our 5th year mark, we finally have a group of TNA talent that have started to gain in popularity. Most of them are in their late 20s, early 30s. We do have several other talent that have had especially early on in our days prior to me being president, just whoever was out there and available. And most eveiybody with a name has worked at a former organization whether it be WCW, which is no longer in business or WWF or WWE.
Q Do you — just to clarify. You've got your stable of talent, the talent you mentioned that has been there for five years and it is starting to get its name. Those were that group came from –
A The new guys?
Q Yeah. Those were — you hired those independently — 18
A People that we heard about on the independent circuit, somebody who happened to see somebody on a small show. And When I say small, it could be anywhere from 150 to 500 people at a bingo hall, a K.C. hall, something along those lines. But they're standouts. I mean, our guy that we have now came from one of our top guys who will win the heavyweight belt, it will be one of our first big made — our own talent. He — you know, we heard about him up in the ring of honor circuit up in Philadelphia. And you know here is a guy and he is big, and I don't mean muscular big, I just mean big and he moves like lightning and he is really great and you should check him out. So we'd bring him in for a dark match, which means it is nontelevised put on before we go on to air just to see how he does in the ring in front of people. And then you give him a shot at losing on a show for a couple of times and then just see if they work. But the people who write the show and our director of talent relations, between them, they know every single wrestler personally that is out there. Because it is not that many people. So they've either worked with them in the past or have heard of them or know somebody who has.
Q Okay. And your second group of those that you have brought in that have worked for
A Other organizations. 19
Q Other large organizations, what percent of your talent has come from other organizations?
A Right now — this would be a guess without sitting in front of a talent roster — 50/50.
Q Okay. And what kind –
A Which is something we're proud of because, I mean, we finally have gotten to a point where we can have that many of our own guys on the show.
Q What is turnover like? I mean, how typical — a typical year, how many of your — how much of your talent turn over?
A They don't quit, you know, because they're under contract. They — it would just be if a character or a story line is not working out. We still have a lot of guys on our roster from the very first show. But there have been a lot that came on, especially in those early days from my understanding that just, you know, didn't have the talent, didn't work out, had — a lot of these guys have a lot of baggage from pre-existing relationships with other companies and didn't fit the mold.
Q Okay. You had mentioned the baggage that some of your wrestlers bring. I think in the context of that kind of baggage, can you walk us through — when you're considering whether to contract with a specific wrestler, what kind of factors do you take into consideration? How is 20 that decision made?
A Talent is very important. You know, we are about quality in the ring. Ours is not as much about, like, story lines and — I mean, we do have story lines and character development, but it is not the — the focus is not on that. Ours is mostly on the in-ring action. So they have to be — you know, they have to be good wrestlers. They have to have a reputation of being easy to work with. We — having a talent — I mean, if you get 50 men in a room and a few women in a room at any time, it is hard and you want a happy environment, it is a challenge, especially when, you know, these guys have big egos and the whole thing. And we have from the very beginning made this kind of our law, that this is a team, you may consider it an individual sport, it is a team and you have to have the attitude of such. And then secondly, you know, where they are at. I mean, we have a lot of guys on our roster who are former addicts, you know, who have been addicted to pain medicine for obvious reasons. And some who have had substance abuse problems in the past, alcohol and, you know, who have cleaned up their lives and they are now in a different part of their life and are with us now. So we do consider, like, everything about them.
Q Okay. I was going to say specifically, do you provide guidance to your talent scouts regarding wrestlers who have known or suspected drug problems? 21
A I don't personally, because I don't know them personally. But they know. I mean, it is one of those it is an industry and it is a very unique industry. I don't come from this industry. I have not been a part of it very long. It is an extremely unique industry. These people know everything about everybody. And probably, because some of them I — even employees worked with them at times when they knew what they were going through, or things such as that. So they are very aware.
Q And do you provide any guidance to your talent scouts that some of these issues may be red flags?
A Absolutely. We don't hire anybody who has a problem. And — but we do hire people who are in remission, you know, or who have gone through therapy and have cleaned up their lives and, you know –
Q And how do you determine that they are — that they're clean?
A Well, we've not tested them prior to them coming in. But we do know, you know. And we do know because these people have either been best friends with them for 10 years, 15 years and they don't hide it. You know what I'm saying? I mean, if people know that this person, you know, has been on the record of doing drugs and quit for years leading up to it or whatever.
Q What about steroids in particular? Do you provide 22 talent any — I ask this question — steroids — to the extent someone has a problem with cocaine or painkillers, that is something that I think you're right, it can often be an open secret.
A Very much so.
Q And people know about it. Individuals who are taking steroids, they can be highly functional. It is not like someone who has an addiction to different drugs. How do you — do you provide any specific guidance with regard to wrestlers who may be using steroids?
A In our drug policy, it says there is no steroid you know, steroids would be coupled under prescription medicine prescribed not by an appropriate physician.
Q Right.
A So that would fall under that. But you're right, I mean, that is the case. I mean, they would be fully functioning. I think the look of a wrestler is your number one ability to be able to look at somebody and tell. Our talent — I brought them a few pictures. I don't know if you'd want me to show them. Mr. Cacheris. Not now. Ms. Carter. But our talent is they just look different. You know what I'm saying? I have never and would never and I profess to tell everybody that, you know, we just want healthy, clean athletes. We don't want 23 anything else. And you do not have to look like a cartoon character. As a matter of fact, that does not fit our mold for our company. And, you know, they — so that's pretty much the case. BY MR. COHEN:
Q And again, I don't want to harp on this issue over again. Do you provide any specific — do you — that kind of explanation you just provided me, do you provide that kind of explanation or guidance to your talent scouts?
A Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I have people who have been on steroids in the past, some for extended periods of time, some to the point where they have no testosterone in their body at all now. They can't have children now. They have a variety of medical issues that this has caused. And not only has my director of talent relations but I've had direct conversations with these people saying this is not tolerated, it is not expected in this company, we want you to be around when you're 70, 80 years old. I know you, your family, your little kids and you need to make sure that you're under proper care and that you're completely taken care of.
Q To the extent that — again, you mentioned the look being a big tip. To the extent that one of your talent scouts or anyone else with any organization has a suspicion that a wrestler may be using steroids, do you instruct the 24 talent to inform TNA management as they — to the extent they provide a recommendation regarding picking up that particular wrestler?
A Absolutely. It is called — the juice is what they call it. And they — or the gas, or I think that is the other name that they typically call that. And — like I said, they — like this guy is on the gas, this guy is on the juice. You know, you wouldn't want him, he is — that is not who you'd want.
Q So you have had those specific conversations?
A Absolutely.
Q Do your talent scouts provide written recommendations or –
A No.
Q — suggestions for particular individuals?
A No.
Q It is all by word of mouth?
A It is — I mean, the creative committee will call and say — you know, either the talent relations man will come to creative and say these wrestlers are available or they've shown an interest in working here or the creative group that writes the shows will go to him and say, hey, we are interested in bringing in so and so. Within the last 6 months, we had a concern that there were two people that creative wanted to bring in, that we did not have a 25 knowledge of them, we did not have that personal, you know, working, personal relationship with them and wound up not bringing in one, brought in the other and we could tell -?we didn't even need to test. We could tell right away that he was not — would not fit the mold and would not be able to pass a test. And he was not invited back after that time. It was a one-time offer to come in.
Q I see. Okay. That's actually a little bit to my next question. To the extent that there may be questions or rumors about a particular talent you're considering or your talent scouts have indicated that they have suspicions, do you conduct background checks or any other independent investigations that might provide insight into a particular wrestler's drug use?
A What we're starting to do is if there is any doubt on a wrestler, even if we feel like we know the situation, we are going to go — we are in a position now where we're able to do it. We're going to test regardless. We're not just going to test anybody that comes in if there is no suspicion or doubt just to screen.
Q Those are future plans?
A Yes, correct. Actually we already have been doing that this summer, looking at people that we'd bring in. Actually there was a couple that we were going bring in that we said there would be testing and they wound up not coming 26 in.
Q So you started testing, screening this summer?
A No. We planned on it. We started talking about it and we even — when there were a couple of new talent that we told if you were going to come in, we'd conduct a test in advance. Creative — one didn't write one into it and the other one ended up going to Mexico instead, which could have been our answer right there.
Q Okay. Have you ever with regard to WWE talent that comes into the — that comes into TNA, have you ever do you ask WWE if they've ever tested positive for drug use or if those wrestlers might have a drug problem?
A No. It is all public knowledge. We don't talk to the WWE. But it is public knowledge who is, you know, not failed who has failed a drug policy — a drug test. Excuse me. There was one talent in particular that had a history of it. I don't know if they were ever, you know, under — I don't know if WWE even had a drug policy back then. And it was a very famous charismatic guy, he had people, you know — he knew everybody in our organization, he had been clean for over a year. This was all street drugs. He came in and was great for a long period of time and stumbled. And we had to suspend him and then we let him go. He never came back and worked for us again. Absolute right thing to do. Painful for when you don't have any 27 stars and you need one, but we didn't even question it.
Q Okay. When talent is hired at the time of hiring, for example, do you provide any education on the risk of drug use in general and steroid use in particular?
A Not at this we have not. We have just instituted about a year and a half ago a talent handbook that has some information in there. We are going to be — you know, steroids, we do not believe, is a big problem within our company. But regardless of that, we are trying to start providing steroid — not just that, but preventive medicine. We have started doing seminars on financial planning. I've got guys who have made millions of dollars in their lives who now don't have a penny to get to the next week. So there is a variety of when I say baggage that comes with this, it is far beyond drugs. It is, you know, not knowing how to manage your money, depression, bodies broken down and things such as that.
Q Okay. You've been pretty open regarding the fact that you have hired wrestlers with known or suspected drug abuse problems. Is it –
A In their past, correct.
Q In their past?
A Absolutely.
Q If you're considering a wrestler with a known or suspected drug abuse problem, is the hiring process any 28 different for those wrestlers than those with no known history of drug use?
A Well, the only difference would be that there is a conversation that happens with them that says there is no tolerance here and it will not be allowed and we expect you to keep, you know, the good work that you have done. I mean, honestly we are a company where we have tried to give people second chances because it is — you know, it is a very different type of company. I mean, we were trying to let wrestlers know — we've got a guy currently right now who was an alcoholic for many years and was sober for 4 or 5 and started drinking within the last two months. He was sent home immediately and told that his health and the health of his wrestlers was more important to us than anything and he'd be paid and his job is secure but he has to get help before he can come back.
Mr Cohen. Okay. I'm going to — before I get to the next set, I'll send it around and ask if anyone has any issues they want to raise. Mr. Buffone. I want to clarify something. EXAMINATION BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q You said — would any competent scout should be able to know the wrestling — the wrestler they're recommending, they should know whether or not they're using illicit drugs? 29 Is that your opinion?
A They absolutely should be able to know that.
Q And they should be able to know if they're addicted to painkillers?
A They should know that.
Q And they shou}d be able to know if they use steroids?
A They would probably know that.
Q So most any wrestling scout should be able to -?A Not just him personally. It's not like you can expect one guy to have all of that magic information. That would be absolutely incorrect information. What it is is you'd go and talk to that person's best friend, you would talk to the guy he has traveling with and you talk to other people who have been in that organization with him. You probably know family members that you'd consult with. But he is responsible for finding and culling all of that information together. But he himself would not know it.
Q But in the normal background check, that would go into any scout recruiting new talent, they should be able to find all that information and should know that before they would come and make the recommendation to TNA?
A Yes.
Q Whether or not that talent has that problem?
A Uh-huh. Correct. 30
Q Thank you. BY MR. COHEN:
Q And to clarify, it sounds like you rely solely upon the information obtained by those talent scouts?
A Up until this time prior to hiring, correct. And in the future, like I said, if there is reasonable doubt, we'll do something. But if there is no reasonable doubt, there is no — we don't believe there is any reason to test prior to hiring.
Q Okay.
Mr Cohen. Do you guys have anything else? Mr. Chance. You had mentioned in the beginning looking for talent. Was there any kind of perception that TNA might become sort of a safe haven for those have been else where, to come and work Ms. Carter. I think it is the exact opposite. I think it is — we run a very tight close-knit ship. We run only a few shows a month and we keep a very, very tight leash on people. One little incident and people have been sent home, suspended or fired. And so I think it is the exact opposite. BY MR. COHEN:
Q For the next round of questions, I'm going to present you with an August 9, 2007 e-mail from Andy Barton to you. This is we'll mark this as Exhibit 1. I'll mark 31 it for you. [Carter Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] BY MR. COHEN:
Q Take a minute to review it.
A I know it.
Q Who is Andy Barton and what is his responsibility at TNA?
A Andy is our senior vice president. He is responsible for licensing and international television distribution and has been I worked with him for many years leading up to this, so he is somebody I have most trust in and he has helped me research a lot on drug policy and other companies' drug policies and things such as that.
Q Okay. The e-mail refers to Terry. In reference to Terry, Mr. Barton writes, is his main job facilitating creative by getting talent creative wants on the TNA roster who do not — I'm sorry. Let me start this again. In reference to Terry, Mr. Barton writes is his main job facilitating creative by getting talent creative wants on the TNA roster who do or might have drug problems or is his first obligation to tell you and Dean that a talent creative wants has a drug problem and we either shouldn't bring them in or test them in a meaningful way prior to his joining of the roster? Who is Terry and what is his responsibility at 32 TNA?
A Terry Taylor is director of talent relations. And this was the incident I actually referred to earlier from this summer when there were two talent that creative said that they'd like to bring in or needed for a show. And one — there was a concern about one person because of his physical look and we did not have anybody — you know, we just had no history, knowledge, no one had worked with him and he didn't know anything about him except the judgment that he was passing. The other one had a known substance abuse problems. We wound up not even attempting to bring him in. The other person is the one that we brought in and could just tell by looking at him since no one had seen him in a period of time that he did not fit what we'd want in that company and he was let go.
Q Okay.
A He wasn't really let go because he was never hired but he was not invited back after that show.
Q Okay. And the Dean in that e-mail is
A Dean is Dean Broadhead, and he is our CEO. What Andy was bringing to my attention was the system that should be.
Q Okay. Did you reply to Mr. Barton's e-mail?
A I was on vacation when he sent it. So I probably called him back. And it wound up being that the one guy 33 didn't come in and we said we'll make a determination, you know, once we can see this guy and we did.
Q Okay. And did you reply to the specific question, to clarify the nature of Terry's jqb?
A Absolutely. That's why he is asking that, is that should he have just — because talent wants somebody, you know, should he — if he doesn't know that background with them, is he to do it anyway? And Andy was being — Andy is our — our police dog when it comes to this issue. So he is being maybe a little — I don't know if flippant is the right word. But he was trying to let me know that if creative wants somebody who has by any chance some kind of baggage if we don't have the ability to test them out, what do we do.
Q Did you follow up on this e-mail in any other way?
A Well, one of the guys, like I said, we never invited in. And the other guy came for us to see him. And after that one appearance, he was no longer there.
Q Were you concerned Mr. Barton in that e-mail makes reference to confusion within — is sounds like to some confusion within — among individuals who are lower in the organization about where the organization should stand with regard to drug use. Were you concerned that this confusion existed?
A No. The problem lies with the head of talent, 34 creative Jeff Jarrett, not — and Terry Taylor not being -?Terry is not his favorite person. He thinks he is — you know, he is not a good agent on the show, he is laying out matches and things like that. So Terry is in essence scared of Jeff and I think he didn't know in this situation -?since creative wanted him and he didn't have the ability to give him an answer of what he should do.
Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Barton provided an answer to Mr. Taylor about his concerns, a specific answer regarding –
A I believe it is the same thing I communicated to Andy. And at this point on August 9th, we had testing set up for steroids and drugs for September 10th. And if they were going to stay, they would be subjected to the testing within four weeks. So we knew that that was happening as well.
Mr Cohen. Sam or Sarah, do you want to ask anything about this particular e-mail? Ms. Safavian. Can I just follow up on what you mentioned about the testing that was beginning on September 10th? EXAMINATION BY MS. SAFAVIAN:
Q Did it happen?
A No, it didn't. We did it in advance of receiving 35 the letter from the committees and then were advised that we should just hold off on the testing in case we were given certain provisions that we'd need to provide. So we were told just to hold off until we heard back from Congress in case there were certain things that we needed to do differently.
Q With regard to your testing?
A With regard to testing, correct.
Q Had you notified the talent that there was going to be this testing on September 10th?
A Uh-huh.
Q So they were all aware that within a few weeks you were going to have the testing done?
A We set it up through — we have an orthopedic surgeon on staff with us at every show and he had set it up through a hospital in Florida.
Q What did you end up telling the talent when you cancelled the testing?
A That it was just being postponed.
Q Was a new date ever scheduled?
A Well, we didn't hear back for me to come in and -?until just within the last week or two, I guess, when this offer — when I was asked to come in. So we went ahead and just decided we couldn't wait. So we were just going to schedule it within January. 36
Q So it is next month?
A Yeah. We just decided to go ahead and not wait and if it wasn't right, then we'd redo it and fix it later.
Q And did you notify the talent about the new testing date?
A I don't know if they've been told or not yet. BY MR. COHEN:
Q The reason that particular e-mail caught our eye was that several witnesses interviewed by our committee have described TNA as a refuge for WWE's failed drug users and as a safe haven for drug users. Are you concerned about this image?
A I don't think it is a correct image at all. I absolutely don't think it is. We have a lot of people who have past histories. There was a USA Today article in '94. And you know there are several of our guys interviewed for that that we offered up, come down, come see our show, come down and talk to these people. And they all had past histories with drug abuse and prescription medicine abuse.
Q Does image concern you?
A Image concerns me tremendously. I mean, we are -?we work very, very hard to be a different kind of wrestling company, to treat our wrestlers differently, to provide them a different lifestyle, to not put them on the road where they beat and batter their bodies so much that they have no 37 option but to turn to pain medicine. It is a huge problem. And we treat them with respect, which they've never gotten before. But we also hold them accountable. And it is not a safe haven. These guys are on a very short leash as far as it being a family friendly show what they can do in the ring and the image and perception of how they are. If they get into any kind of an altercation — let's just say boys having fun in a bar fight, it doesn't matter — it may not be on our clock and they may work for a lot of other people, but it will not be tolerated in our company.
Q So have you had instances where you've let wrestlers go because of those kind of indiscretions?
A Absolutely. Absolutely. Suspended, let off shows which means without pay. That is a form of suspension as well for a period of time and termination. And we've also had several wrestlers who we have allowed to go to rehab and have told them that their places were safe afterwards. But again most of this would be, you know, pain medication and some of them — yeah, it is mostly pain medication or alcohol.
Q ,I was going to ask, have there been any specific cases where you've suspended or let wrestlers go because of issues with regard to steroids or performance enhancing drugs?
A No. 38
Mr Cohen. I think that is the end on this set. Anybody else want to BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q You seem to be saying that you want to create a place that really says you don't you want a better kind of wrestler and a better kind of talent who really respects the rules and respects the laws and doesn't get in trouble. How does hiring Pacman Jones who was suspended by the NFL fit into that image?
A Well, you know, in this country, I believe you're innocent until proven guilty. And the last I checked, you know, most all of his incidents, several of them have been cleared during his tenure with us and even some since then. You know, he was available and we found a good program that was fun for him. And we. really felt after talking to him at length, talking to his attorneys, talking to his agent and everything that we asked all those questions in advance and were told, you know, this is an issue that should be cleared up in the next period of time and, you know, if you want to use him, you can for that reason. BY MR. COHEN:
Q One of your other big stars, Kurt Angle, has also been he is certainly suspected — he has been — media reports have indicated he is a suspected drug user at the very least. 39
A He has been very vocal about
Q And can you tell us when you decided to hire him, was you have spoken about your concern about TNA's image and you're concerned about being a family friendly organization and presenting a family friendly show. What was your thinking with regard to bringing in Mr. Angle and how it would affect that image?
A Kurt has been very vocal in the media about his addiction to pain medicine. And he — he was also very vocal about his inability to be given time off to rehab. And against the advice of doctors, he quit cold turkey. Prior to a match, I believe, or I believe prior to right after a big important match he had been off drugs for a period of time, very, very unhappy with his situation. And I hate speaking for somebody, but –
Q I asked.
A You did ask me. But he is the one to probably ask even more so. But he had been cleared for a long period of time. He — we met with his attorney and his agents. He was under the care of a three legitimate doctors in the Pittsburgh area, all of which are highly reputable. One for preventative medicine, one for his broken neck and the other just general — his general medicine and welfare I guess it is. And, you know, we felt like he had, you know — he was in a completely different place. 40
Q Okay.
A And he has been very vocal since about the kind of life he led there. But he is a different kind of person. I mean, he takes responsibility. Just because he worked 300 days a year, he doesn't blame the company, which I don't believe he should because he chose to take the paycheck, you know. And but he has been very vocal about getting hooked on the medicine, his inability to rehab until he finally had to do what he –
Q Okay. Our next set is on TNA's testing and drug policies.
A Okay.
Q Your drug policy is laid out in your talent policies and procedures handbook. We'll mark this Exhibit 2. [Carter Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.] BY MR. COHEN:
Q I'm providing you with a copy. When was this policy developed?
A WWE came out with a general wellness policy maybe March 1st, maybe the last day in February of 2006 if my memory is right. And Andy forwarded it to me within a day. And we reviewed it and we decided that even though we were just running the three shows a day and these guys didn't work for us full-time, actually worked for everybody else 41 for a majority of the time, we needed to, you know, put together a formal document for them that laid out the dos and don'ts of what they had been told in bits and pieces. So we created this talent handbook of which a drug policy is included in that.
Q The next exhibit — I'm going to present you with a March 12, 2006 e-mail from Kevin Day to you.
A Uh-huh. [Carter Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.] BY MR. COHEN:
Q This e-mail is from Kevin Day to you, Andy Barton -?A Jeff Jarrett.
Q Jeff Jarrett and Steve Campbell, responding to the February 28th e-mail from Andy Barton. This we will mark as exhibit 3?
A So then they came out with that policy on February 27th. I was close.
Q In discussing the WW wellness policy, Mr. Day states I can like the substance of it, provided we apply our own discipline levels to it, it seems like a good policy to it. It seems like a good policy. Are you familiar with the WW policy that Mr. Day liked?
A Correct.
Q The first draft of the policy presented to the committee — presented to our committee — among the documents presented to our committee, the first draft of the policy was created on March 3rd, three days after Mr. Barton's original e-mail. When you initially drafted your wellness — your talent policy, did you use that WW wellness policy as a guide?
A I think they looked at several different organizations' drug testing policies and made the determination — I think, there was conversations back and forth about. You know, with us only working with these guys 3 days a month, what we can and cannot request of them. And it was determined that we wanted to create a full policy but we did not list out all the specific drugs. It was more just prescription drugs. We did not list every prescription drug made and things such as that. But it does, I think -?you know, it covers the basics of it.
Q Okay. With regard to your final policy — and I apologize if I'm jumping around a little bit.
A That's okay.
Q I'll probably — one key difference between the final policy and WWE's current policies, is that WWE's policies include provisions for support — for drug testing for steroids while TNA's appear not to. Why is this the case? Why did you finally not to decide to include testing for steroids? 43
A Well, it is a prescription drug. I mean, that would be considered to mean a legal prescription drug.
Q So your understanding is that your current policy includes
A Absolutely.
Q Specific provisions that would allow testing for steroids?
A Absolutely. For anyone to use prescription drugs illegally.
Q What was the specific rationale again for -?A Not listing it out?
Q It seems like a curious decision to me. If you wanted it to be clear to your wrestlers that they were included why not list them out?
A I just felt like — I think everybody at the time felt like for a company of our size and where we were at and how many days a week these people were working for us, this was as comprehensive and included every single thing, the WWE's did without specifically spelling it out.
Q Did you, at any point, spell out to your wrestlers that steroids were covered under that policy?
A Absolutely. We went through this policy with them when they received the'handbooks and, you know, everybody was told — we walked through it, we walked through every one of these steps. And every wrestler that comes and signs 44 a contract with us gets this in advance and I believe has to sign it, that they reviewed it with us.
Q Okay. And did you when you gave them that policy, did you indicate there would definitely be tests at some point?
A At this point it was to reserve the right and we'll test if there was suspicion.
Q Okay.
A And since this has been enacted, we have had several suspensions and terminations and those that have been sent to rehab for drinking or things such as that. But no testing was quite honestly necessary because it was obvious.
Q Okay. So .you've not conducted any tests under that current policy?
A No.
Q Okay. All right. I'm going to give you a March 24, 2006 draft of the policy. We'll mark that Exhibit 4. [Carter Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.] BY MR. COHEN:
Q This draft — stipulation 5 of this draft, which is the third page — that stipulates that TNA reserves the right to drug test.
A Right.
Q This — as we've walked through the chronology of 45 drafts we've been given, this is the first mention of drug testing in any of the drafts.
A This one right here?
Q Uh-huh. This is the March 23rd draft. Can you -?again, I apologize. This is a little bit specific, but the initial e-mail that began your — the discussion your talent policy came on February 28th. There were several drafts in between that did not include reference to drug testing of any kind. The reference to drug testing includes finally, appears in the March 23rd draft. Can you walk us through the discussions that ensued between February 28th and the final decision to include, I guess, the decisions not to include drug testing provisions in the initial drafts and then the final decision that led to the appearance of the right to drug test in this March 23rd draft?
A I don't think it was a decision not to drug test at first. We never sat down and said this is our drug policy, now let's put it in place. We throughout this entire policy, the entire talent handbook, we just started off with a first draft and then we reviewed it and brought more people in to look at it and started pulling more information as we were doing it. Considering how understaffed our company was at the time for us to have even turned something around like this 46 was in pretty quick order and showed me that this was a priority for our company on a very fast track. So I think what we did is we just began to pull more policies in, people started talking and we started adding. It was not a conscious decision, oh, let's leave it out at first, no, let's do it and there were no discussions like that had.
Q Were there any discussions before that was included of the potential costs of drug testing or if this — the cost of including that provision in the draft?
A It was in this — in the discussing of it?
Q As you discussed the draft, as you discussed how the policies would turn out, was there discussions that it is going to cost us money to drug test, it may end up with -?are we — we'd have to set up a testing program. We'd have to do X, Y and Z. Were there those kind of economic discussions that were going on about that particular provision or provisions that were not included in drafts for the final version?
A There have been discussion of every time we have had to testing or physicals or things such as that, there has always been financial discussions. Quite honestly up until, you know, this year, we have been operating at a significant loss. And so I'm sure that there were people talking about how much anything costs. We talked about the cost of paper. I mean, it was that kind of an existence for a company.
Mr Cohen. Any other questions about the initial development of TNA policies and procedures? Mr. Buffone. Just to clarify. BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Was it your understanding that testing from the initial discussions when you first heard the WWE wellness policy that the testing always was on the table?
A For us? Oh, absolutely. I think we decided from the beginning we needed a policy that allows us to randomly test people when we want and that protects us when we ask these guys who don't work for us full time that we want to do this and that they have to agree to it in advance and there are certain legal things that we need to make sure that we cover on both sides. BY MR. COHEN:
Q All right. The next document I'm going to provide you with is an e-mail dated May 31, 2006.
A Uh-huh.
Q This will be Exhibit 5. [Carter Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.] BY MR. COHEN:
Q This is now after the final version of the drug policies that has gone into effect. This May 31, 2006 e-mail is from Steve Campbell to you regarding blood and 47 48 drug tests — blood and drug testing. The drug test includes according to this e-mail marijuana, cocaine, PCP, amphetamines and barbiturates. Did this drug testing occur?
A That drug testing did not. At this time, we were, I believe, complying with an OSHA request from the State of Florida if I'm — I don't know if that — but that is my memory from this. And we did the testing that they requested. But again, we were not — had not made the decision to do, you know, talentwide testing. It was based upon reason. And — so we were complying with an OSHA, I believe it was request.
Q So that was specific compliance testing?
A Specific compliance, correct, for the State of Florida, I believe. That's who did it. But it was for our shows in Orlando. 49 RPTS DEAN DCMN MAGMER [2:05 p.m.]
Q The final version of the drug policy -?A Do I have that?
Q Yes, that is Exhibit
A 0011?
Q Double 09?
A Okay.
Q The drug policy says TNA reserves the right to conduct random drug tests and other tests in accordance with government requirements.
A Correct.
Q Can you walk me through your understanding of the meaning of that final provision "in accordance with government requirements"?
A When you tour, there is athletic commissions in each State and each State has from pretty much no provisions whatsoever to pretty strict provisions of needing full physicals, blood work and things such as that. So those are State government requirements, and so we wanted to make sure that they knew that we could be asking them at any given time to provide HIV testing and other things that would be required of us to operate and do business.
Q It is not clear from this that you reserve the right 50 to conduct random drug tests outside of government requirements. Was that made clear to the wrestlers?
A I think it is two totally different deals. One is to conduct random drug tests and then — and other tests in accordance with government requirements.
Q The other question is — we're back on this particular document.
A Which document?
Q The same one.
A Okay.
Q Actually, let's go back to the testing in the May 31st e-mail. This was testing — again, per your initial previous request, this was testing that was done to meet government requirements. Were all your — in this set of testing, were all your — was all your talent tested?
A Yes, yes, sir. And looking at the dates on this
Q Uh-huh.
A — the OSHA request probably came up -?Q Uh-huh.
A between this date and this, and it was — counsel provided to us that we probably let them know in advance that they would have do that. That looks like the timing of that, and that's why that was added as well.
Q Okay. This — the final version of this policy, provision 6 of this, this refers to the Florida Department 51 of Health Bureau of Epidemiology's request.
A Uh-huh.
Q Is that the — was that the impetus for those May 31st tests?
A Yes, uh-huh.
Q Prior to your — when did you become aware of those requirements?
A At this point, that was the first time.
Q And prior to becoming aware of those requirements and setting up the tests, the June 19th tests, were there any plans — did TNA have any plans to conduct drug testing under this drug policy?
A I think it says we have the right to conduct random drug tests. I believe if I go back and read it, it does say that if there is any suspicion then we would random drug test. Is that the question?
Q I'm asking were there any plans to conduct the tests?
A There had not been any suspicions; and, like I said before, several times when there were suspicions we talked with the talent and they were dealt with, whether it be suspended without pay and then termination.
Q Is it your understanding that these provisions allow you only to conduct testing if there's suspicion?
A No, this says we can conduct random drug tests; and 52 that could mean the entire roster or it could mean with suspicion.
Q Okay. And to clarify, though, there had not been any plans prior to your becoming aware of –
A To test the entire roster, not at this point.
Q The Florida Department of Health –
A Not back in
Q There were no plans at that time?
A Correct. BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Is it your understanding or recollection that you learned of the Florida compliance after you learned of the wellness policy; do you remember?
A I don't know. The request did not come in to me. I just remember hearing about it in that April, May. I would assume that came in after. That may have been a reaction to the WWE wellness policy coming out. I believe their substance policy came out as a reaction to the Eddie Guerrero death. So I believe when Eddie Guerrero died, I believe they instituted the wellness policy. I think that was the driving force behind that.
Q Uh-huh.
A And that may have also been the driving force in us being requested of this information as well.
Q Okay. 53
A But I don't have that information specifically why they requested that and when. Mr. Buffone. All right. BY MR COHEN:
Q Since that May of — now moving ahead a little bit with the policy and where we stand now, have there been any changes to TNA's policies and procedures concerning drug use since May of 2006?
A Yes. Actually, earlier this year, probably second quarter, we started talking about the desire to do a more proactive test, not because we felt that there was reason or doubt but because we felt like, in our desire to distinguish our company, for us to say certain things it needed to be -?I needed to be able to walk into a congressional meeting and say, hey, guys, here's exactly what you're looking for. You don't have to take my word. For us to come out there and do some of the proactive ways in which we wanted to position our company. We were using the words, "the new face of professional wrestling". Quite honestly, our biggest challenge in staying in business is fighting the perception of wrestling. It's a dirty word out there and for good reason. We have had to go in there and try to convince people we will be different to work with. You are working with a different kind of people, organization. So that has been a big 54 challenge for us. So that was one of the reasons we felt like earlier this year we were going to do that. We start