Simon Diamond Talks Being An Agent For TNA, How A Match Is Laid Out, Kurt Angle, Dealing With Egos

In this interview, Vince Russo talks to former ECW star and current TNA agent / producer, Pat Kenney, f.k.a. Simon Diamond. Together, Vince and Pat discuss in detail the relationship between the writer, the agent and the talent. How does a wrestling match actually get "laid out"? Who is responsible for what aspects of the in-ring segment? Pat also then goes into the psychological part of his job, dealing with some of the biggest egos in the business – with many suffering from severe cases of paranoia. You can check out the full interview below:

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Do you know how many times I got blamed for bad matches and bad finishes in matches? People really have no concept of the relationship between the wrestlers, the agents and the writers. You've been an agent for TNA for a long time now, right?

"I think five years. When we went to India, Sonjay me and Shark Boy, which is still to this day my favorite foreign trip. We were over there for two weeks, we were treated like kings. I remember Andy Barton calling me and saying 'you're in charge over there, make the right decision.' The first day over there, they came to us and said they wanted to cancel the show because of the rain, it had been raining for like four days. The equipment was already set up, and 15,000 fans were ready to go. It wasn't a wrestling show, we had just done the deal with ESPN Star, and we were going over there to promote it. It was like a Bollywood show. It was supposed to be Abyss, but something happened, so they sent me. They built this brick wall, they play my music and I burst through it. I was considered a big guy compared to the people of India. Shark Boy came out and we had dancers, they had the parachute like in gym class. Sonjay came out with the flag, he and Shark Boy would thank the fans, then I'd come out and say 'Simon has a problem.' Sonjay would dive on me, dance around and off we went. It went a little over an hour, and we'd do it every night. They wanted to shut the show down, but there were 15,000 people out there already, and I said 'We gotta do it.' They said it was flooded, and I said we'd figure it out. After the show the guy in charge of ESPN Star came up and said 'What time are we going over everything tomorrow?' I asked what he meant and said 'This is pro wrestling, one take.' If you can't do it in one take, get out. I wish a film crew had been there to see me react to that."

You didn't go over there for the actual shows right?

"No."

I spoke to Joey Ryan, who went over there for the actual shows. I talked to him about his new bionic penis gimmick, which I popped huge for. I didn't even know he was associated with TNA and worked the India tours. Was there any thought of taking Glenn Gilbertti over to India and leaving him there?

"I wish. He is such a louse. He goes on Twitter and talks about Notre Dame to get me riled up."

Who uses the word louse? Phenomenal. A lot of times there's a huge misunderstanding of everyone's role. I want to start with the writer. It all starts with the pen and paper. What's important to the writer is the finish of the match. Where are we going? It's very important that 'this has to be the finish.' From a writer's perspective, that's all I care about to get from point A to point B. I used to play a match out in my mind, and I'd lay this match out like 'here's an idea for the match,' but I know the wrestlers and the agent are the professionals when it comes to laying out the match. I give you some suggestions, some bullet points, then it's handed off to Pat Kenney (Diamond), the match is James Storm vs. Kurt Angle. Once the writer hands off the script, take it from there.

"Usually there's only one spotlight, you can't have two. When you have two, it causes problems, like with Van Halen. The next thing I'll do is talk with those guys to get a feel of what they want. I think one of the biggest problems WWE has is they haven't figured out who they want to highlight, who's getting over. Once I have that, I have an idea of what I want to do. I don't want to impose that on the talent because that restricts the creative process, which is the whole thing for the business. I think we've pulled a little too much of that out of the wrestler and need to go back to the days of giving them more say, but holding them more responsible about what happens."

I agree, we've taken some creativity from the artist, which is the wrestler. Why do you think that is?

"The biggest thing is television has taken over wrestling, like every sport. The World Series starts at like 8:45, it kills it for kids. Look at the demographics, we're the only ones watching baseball, the only ones staying up. Wrestling has now become a TV-driven business, because that's where the money is. Because of that, it's being produced like a television show, instead of a sporting event. A sporting event is still a sporting event. A wrestling show is now a TV show that needs to be produced and you have to care for the parameters that is calling the shots. For TNA, that will be Pop TV starting January 5. WWE is a publicly traded company. Vince McMahon has a direct order to make sure stockholders are happy. Stockholders don't care about five star matches, they don't care about the internet darling, they care about getting that printout that says their share is $16. That's all they care about. You can't have a moment of dead air time, because air time is so expensive."

So now you have the script from me, the finish, you know who you want to get over. You have James and Kurt, two seasoned professionals, give me the conversation.

"'Here's what we want, what do you all have in mind?' It's basically my job to filter these ideas. Kurt always has ideas. The top guys always have ideas. The mid card guys are more like 'can you help us?' They don't want to be aggressive and seem like they're stepping on toes. I'll filter ideas, I'll make suggestions, and you funnel everything into a final process. I try not to impose too much and say 'this is what we're doing' unless I know it's what needs to be done. At the end of the day, the wrestler is looking out for himself. You have to."

To me, the agent is the hardest role to fill. A writer is easy to get, a producer is easy to get. An agent has to be a wrestler that's smart, that's easy to deal with. Agents deal with egos. Wrestlers are trained to get themselves over. You have these two talents in front of you. You know who the office wants to get over, then as independent contractors, they want to get themselves over. How do you work through that?

"My job is to protect the vision of the company. To do what's best for business, and make sure it's carried out. I have little tricks. Very rarely have I had to say 'this is what we're doing, if you don't want to do it, I'll go to the higher ups and we'll get someone else.' I think I've had to say that maybe three times."

But when you blatantly know a talent is trying to get themselves over, how do you handle that? You're a wrestler, you know when it's happening.

"It's like 'can I talk to you for a second?' Go over to the side and say 'I get it, I was there. It sucks when it's not about you. It's not about you today' We gotta do this and do it to the best of our ability. Van Halen had 'Really Got Me' and made it a great song."

You and Van Halen. You know the internet, anyone thinks they can do this job. Don't you have to by a psychologist and be in the minds of everyone?

"I work with the girls in TNA. I have to be an agent, producer, psychologist, babysitter. Some of them have children. We're talking over matches and they're like 'would you mind looking after (child)?' It's complex. You're dealing with egos. Egos get you in front of 50,000 people, and get you out of performing in front of 50,000 people. Pro wrestlers are not regular people. God took these people and created this business and put all the crazy people in it and said 'go bother each other.' I'd love to see a study of the top 10 all time and the reoccuring traits. I've seen them come in. Hogan, Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Kevin Nash, Hall. Remember when Terry would stick me with Nash and Hall? I'd learn things from them and take it and use it in another match, because they couldn't use it in their match. Those guys were so entertaining. They would all sit in the back room, and it took hours some times, but I'd learn so much from those guys. I'd eventually get what I needed to get, because I'd let them talk. The key to sales isn't talking, it's listening. The process is draining. At the end of the night we'd be out falling asleep."

As I'm writing the show, what's being taken into consideration is 'How is this performer going to feel about this?' That affects my writing. What's Kurt going to think about this? What hole is he going to poke into this. After I do this, I'm handing it off to you. You have to be a step ahead and know what they're going to think.

"There's a gene that every performer has. It's called one-upsmanship. I haven't wrestled since that last ECW PPV I did, and the only reason I did was because you and Dreamer asked me to. So I consider myself done. Even today, doing little things, when I feel that the eyes are upon me, the green light comes on and I kick it into overdrive, just in every day life, being a father or just whatever. You can never get rid of that gene, ever. That's the thing with wrestlers. It's a natural reaction when they're thrust into the spotlight and turn it on. If you had Eddie Van Halen, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck and Eric Clapton on a stage playing "While My Guitar Gently Weeps" all doing solos, the four of those guys would be trying to outdo each other to the hilt. That's the gene, the entertainer gene. The other side of it is, everyone has to be produced. From the greatest attraction in the business, Hulk Hogan, to the lowest job guy. You always have to have another set of eyes on you to tell you something, maybe the smallest thing."

Probably my last five years with TNA, a lot of the Generation Me-ers came through the door. A lot of kids who knew a lot more coming through the door than I did in 25 years. I used to immediately get the attitude that they know more than me, so go out there and do what you think is right, because I knew they would fall flat on their face and I knew that's how they would learn. When they s–t the bed, I dealt a lot of that my last five years when people were coming through. How do you handle it? You have guys like Kurt Angle, who will take the crappiest thing and make it good, then you have these people who think they know more than you'll ever know.

"I always referred to my experience. I'm sure there's a ton of people out there saying 'What does this guy know about drawing money? He's never drawn money.' My response to that is I learned because I became a student of the game, because that's what I had to do to survive. Where the top guy has the reactionary vision of what they want to do, the lower guys are study it because they want to go to the top. The top card guys are trying to protect their spot, the mid-card guys are trying to get that spot, so they're becoming students of the game. If you look at the history of the agent through the years, it's never been top guys. It's been upper midcard guys who have got a taste of the main event, but not top draws. I remember ESPN doing a study on the success rate between coaches and players. I remember the coach who had the greatest success as a coach and player was Joe Torre. He was an MVP for one year, but he's no Hall of Famer as a player. It's more of a communication aspect with a midcard guy that becomes an agent, so I'd use experience. I'd say 'I was in your shoes, and I totally get it.' I had the same mentality as far as sports. I was difficult to an extent because I thought I knew it all. There's no substitute for experience. I'd say 'I've tried it that way, I know you think your idea is better than mine. It doesn't work, here's why.' If they're passionate about their vision, I'll say let's do it their way, because they'll put more passion into their way than my way. The conversation that happens afterwards, you go to the side and say 'here's why it didn't work, here's how we can fix it, and here's how we can move going forward.' That's the most important thing. When they come out of the ring, they need the hug, not the 'I told you so.' I played baseball at VCU for a very, very hard coach. Very demanding. I didn't understand a lot of things he did. I remembered if I got drilled in practice, it was the hug, emotionally. He'd say the reason he was on me about that is because he needed me to play at a higher level. My play reflects the pitching staff because I'm the catcher. It was the hug. The generation you're talking about is social media, 'look at me, it's all about me.'"

Everyone thinks they can do our job, we're all idiots, yadda yadda. But really, everybody can't. You're dealing with a molotov cocktail of two things — ego and paranoia. The combination of the two. What's more difficult for you to work through in your spot. The ego or paranoia?

"Ego. Paranoia you can dismiss with facts. I've had many of those conversations. 'They're trying to get rid of me, they're trying to bury me, they won't re-sign me.' I don't want to sound like a Bible thumper, but I say it is what it is. God has a plan for everyone and it's going to take its course. Put your hands up on the rollercoaster, enjoy the ride and try to steer it. Paranoia is easy to dismiss with facts. Ego, though, ego is hard. What do you think?"

I think ego. The wrestling business was built on 'I'm an independent contractor.' This is not a team environment, the more I get myself over, the more money I make.

"Back in the day in the 70s, I've heard stories from the old time guys, think of guys like The Sheik, Abdullah, Stan Hansen, Brody– guys who wouldn't put guys over to protect their own business. If they didn't like what you were doing with them, they'd go somewhere else. That's what's missing, too."

I worked with the Rock. The reason Rock has become one of the biggest movie stars on the planet is simple. He was smarter than everyone else. You've worked with top guys in the business. Of course they can work, have a great character, can play the crowd. How much is intelligence a part of their success?

"It's gigantic. It's the X factor. They know where they want to go, what they want to do, and it's their vision, and there's no compromise. I'm reading a book called Van Halen Rising. It's about their early days playing at outdoor parties and draw upwards of 3,000 people before they got signed because they created a buzz. I've learned reading this that the music is Eddie Van Halen, everything else is David Lee Roth. The presentation, the show, he drove the bus. He's probably a savaant intelligence-wise, because he knew the thing to look for and the direction to go. I read a story in the book, they play their first gig ever at a famous place back in the day. David picks up Alex and Eddie, and they're wearing jeans and T-Shirts. He asks where their stage clothes are, and they say 'we're wearing this,' and he says 'no you're not.' Takes them to the mall and buys them stage clothes and tells them moving forward. He had a vision. He wanted the band to look differently, and wouldn't settle for anything less. "

I'm really glad you shed light on the writer, the agent, the psychology of the boys. I respect all of the fans of the business, but you can't know unless you're there.

"You're a huge Giants fans, I'm a huge Yankees fan. We're both top notch fantasy baseball players. We couldn't be GMs for a baseball team. That's how it is. We can sit there and say I've won the league twice, you've won the league twice. We can't do it. No way. It's a whole different level."

As a Giant fan, they just paid Jeff Samardzija $90 million. Immediately with me, the guy's won 40 games, how do you pay him that kind of money? Where I stop myself is, the GM of the Giants did not get that job by winning the lottery. He got it from years of experience, time with the players. When they make a move like that, I question it, but I leave it up to the professionals.

"He's being paid millions and millions of dollars to make decisions for the owner who's making millions of dollars. There's a reason he's being paid a lot of money to make decisions. It's not because he's watching Monday Night Raw and tweets out that he doesn't like the transitions in the main event match. Do you think it's a fair assessment to say that the head of creative is the head coach, the writers underneath him are the coordinators and the agents/producers are the position coaches?"

Not really, bro. I always looked at the agent as working hand in hand with me, because it's a different skill set. You were the wrestler, you were in the ring, I wasn't. At a level being equal with mine, it was a skill set I didn't have.

"What was the one thing you wanted your agents to have?"

The hardest thing int he world, and it's a credit to you, Al Snow, Shane Helms, Abyss. Harder than communication, everybody's gotta like the guy. How easy is it to bury the agent and not like the agent? It has to be somebody very likeable. If I have a problem with Pat Kenney, I better look at myself in the mirror. Everybody loves you, Al Snow, Abyss. Pat Patterson, the greatest agent in the history of the business. Who didn't love Pat Patterson and Gerald Brisco? You have to be liked.

"I think it makes the wrestler question himself when he's defiant against the agent. That's a good point, I never thought of that."

I worked with agents that were the other way, and one was Jeff Jarrett. It was his way or the highway and there's no room for anything else. You were always getting (clashing). When the agent is likeable the wrestler second guesses himself because the agent is so easy to get along with.

You can watch the full interview in the video above.