ROH Founder Cary Silkin Discusses CM Punk AEW All Out Media Scrum, Punk In ROH, Relationship With The Young Bucks & More - Exclusive
Following WWE's purchase of WCW in 2001, the pro wrestling industry cooled down a bit due to the lack of competition. While there was hope that a WCW/ECW invasion of WWE could spark renewed fan interest, the entire angle was largely deemed a flop, with Vince McMahon giving up on the other brands in favor of getting back to his formula.
Enter Cary Silkin, who in 2004 saw the void that was present in the pro wrestling marketplace and decided to purchase a young, renegade promotion in Ring of Honor and take it to the next level. ROH, initially founded in 2002, offered a harder and more realistic presentation than what fans could seeing on WWE TV at the time and, with Silkin's backing, the promotion found a cult following. The earliest days of Ring of Honor were filled with names like AJ Styles, Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe, CM Punk and Bryan Danielson, all of whom — except Styles — went on to become ROH World Champion.
In 2011, shortly after a young upstart named Tyler Black — now known as WWE's Seth Rollins — was taking off, Silkin made the decision to sell the promotion to Sinclair Broadcasting so that it could find a broader audience. Silkin was made honorary ambassador for the promotion until it was again sold earlier this year to AEW owner Tony Khan. Khan has kept Silkin attached to ROH, as he has been present at both Khan-produced ROH events and was recently seen ringside for the ROH World Title match on "AEW Dynamite: Grand Slam."
In this exclusive interview with Wrestling Inc. Senior News Editor Nick Hausman, Silkin opens up about the Khans' acquisition of ROH, his current role with AEW/ROH, and some of the stories surrounding the former ROH talents in AEW that he used to work with.
Things Get Physical
Nick Hausman: Cary, last time a lot of fans saw you, you were on AEW TV. That's a different change of pace. Chris Jericho laid you out.
Cary Silkin: Yes.
How you feeling?
Oh, I'm okay, man. That was terror. That wasn't right.
No, but what was right was seeing you in the middle of Arthur Ashe Stadium now infamous for Serena Williams' retirement, but also you getting laid out on AEW television.
Yeah, it was really cool to be there. I was really happy to be there. What a beautiful place. I don't really have a lot of points of... Well, I have a few. I was backstage at Madison Square Garden and you've been backstage at these arenas here and there. This place is like the Ritz Carlton of backstage. It's just incredible, really, really nice. Anyway, it was nice to be there. Chris Jericho is an a**hole for doing that and...
Sure, sure.
He's bringing a lot of attention to the Ring of Honor title and the Ring of Honor name, which I think is a good thing.
When you're backstage after this, does he say anything to you? Do you share a moment with Chris? Was he apologetic after the fact?
Not really.
No?
No.
Do you like being a part of the action like this, Cary?
Not really.
No?
No. And you're a little bit of a Ring of Honor historian. The only people that ever put their hands on me were in 2009, Kevin Steen in New York City and he tried to give me a power bomb. Fortunately, I was saved by Todd Sinclair and couple other guys at ringside. Then, there was the Bully Ray incident in 2018 where that knucklehead... He was having that match with Flip Gordon. And I couldn't take it anymore, Nick. And when that kendo stick just happened to be laying by me after he had poked me with it, I said, "No, no, no," and I gave him a good whack. I've never really been built for taking any kind of bumps, but there's a lot of metal in my body and I don't want to have that happen again and it's not going to happen again.
Ring Of Jericho
Now Chris is the ROH world champion and his intended goal, he says, is to go around beating all the former Ring of Honor world champions. What do you think about that? How do you feel about that change in direction for him?
Well, let him go after the wrestlers. I mean, last week was Bobby Cruise, right? And I noticed online he threatened Ian Riccaboni. But hey, let him mess around with Samoa Joe. Let him mess around with Jay Lethal. Let him mess around with Dalton Castle. And I'm sure I'm leaving a lot of names off the list here that are actively participating in ROH, but we'll just... Oh, how could I forget Bryan Danielson? Let him mess around with those guys and not be doing this chicken sh_t chasing old Cary around.
I don't know if you saw the news or not. This was like five minutes ago. Fightful was the first to report out. Bandido, I guess, has come to terms with AEW and another former Ring of Honor world champion is in AEW. (NOTE: This report has since been disputed)
That was a really good match too. I give credit where it's due and old man Jericho. Sure. He's a lot younger than me. He's really, really good, and to have a very competitive match with Bandido... He has competitive matches with everybody, but I thought that one might be a little bit of clash of styles. Right? It really wasn't so that was good. Yeah, good for Bandido. He's a good guy. And let's not forget Rush.
That's right.
Let's not forget. It's amazing. Let's not forget, when he's healthy, when they're both healthy, Kyle O'Reilly and Adam Cole. It's really amazing. It's really cool. It's really gratifying for me to see all... Once in a while I'll put up an old picture with, let's just say Adam and Kyle and I'll just say all my children, and it's the way it is. It's really happy for these guys' success. And a lot of people will say, "Oh Cary, if it wasn't for..." I just gave these guys a good platform to be noticed on. Nick, come on, get on the ball here. Doesn't Claudio deserve a rematch?
I don't know. How do you feel? You want to see Claudio get the rematch?
Why not? He deserves a rematch.
Maybe, but I also wonder if with him no longer being Ring of Honor champion and some people being out right now, maybe there's some other opportunities that could be in Claudio's future.
Well, all I'm trying to point out is there's someone else on the list. Of this legacy of great Ring of Honor names that are under contract and that's who Chris Jericho should be going after and I'm sure... I'm not sure about anything, because I don't know anything, but I hope that we see that.
Rekindling Friendship With CM Punk
Well, you talk about all the great Ring of Honor names. You talk about these wrestlers like they're your children and, Cary, I know that's real. You really care about these wrestlers. Obviously a lot of positives, but there was this big mess at AEW All Out, former Ring of Honor world champion, CM Punk, decided to do this media scrum and give some very, very candid thoughts. As somebody who knows this guy, what was your reaction to watching what played out at the scrums after All Out?
Well, just like you were, I was very surprised. Listen, I know Punk from his first day in Ring of Honor through his last day, and in between I saw him two or three times. During his WWE years, there's a very famous picture that George Napolitano took. Well, famous for me, but I brought Larry Sweeney to Madison Square Garden in 2008 and we had seats in the lower level and George Napolitano was at ringside. I noticed from going to shows, wrestling, thousands of concerts, there were two empty seats in the front row. There were the aisle seats in the front row and I said this. The security was light. We just moseyed down to the floor and we stood talking to George, who I had known at that point for... I don't know, I met him through Bushwhacker Luke. I knew him for eight years or so. And I just said to Alex, I said, "Let's just..." And if the people don't know who Alex is, that's Larry Sweeney.
And this is at a WWE show?
This is at Madison Square Garden and the main event was Punk. I don't know who he was wrestling, but it was a cage match. And anyway, when the match was over, I said to Sweeney, "Let's just stay in these seats. If they kick us out, they kick us out. Big deal." We did stay in the seats and nobody kicked us out and nobody ever came and when the match was over, Punk came over and gave us big hugs and George Napolitano captured it on film. And then I spoke to him briefly, just a couple times. There was interest. Very, very minor, minor interest. So minor, it was done through a text message of him wanting to buy Ring of Honor. Right?
Is ROH for sale? Who's asking?
Who, CM Punk?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one line of a text, and I'm saying, "This is how you approach?" I don't care if you're buying a wrestling company or you're buying an umbrella from the lady down the street. Maybe you should call her. Right? Anyway, but that was brief, and then...
Wait, wait, wait. Time out, time out, time out, time out.
What?
Wait, Punk was in WWE at the time and one day just texts you a line that says, "Hi, could I buy Ring of Honor? Is it available?" Something like that?
He didn't say he. He just asked. No, no, no, no, no.
Okay.
He just wanted to know what I was thinking of, if I would sell the product, right?
Maybe not to him.
No.
But he wanted to know if it was for sale. He just wanted to know if it was for sale.
Right.
That's all he was... Okay.
A valid question, probably against the rules of all their rules but so...
What year? Do you remember what year that was? Do you remember when that happened? I'm interested.
This has not been for a f***ing scandal, dude.
I'm not saying it's a scandal, but it's interesting. I don't know, just curious.
It's like I would text you and just out of left field, "Hey Nick, how's your love life?" It was like, "What?" Anyway, I responded and never heard back. That's the whole story, and then in the late-
Well, wait. Time out. Did you tell him it was for sale or not? What did you tell him?
I said, "Sure." And I never heard back from him.
Okay, okay.
Cary Makes A Big Offer To Punk
... And I don't remember if it was before the first All Out, All In or after, might have been after that. Sinclair was trying to lure CM Punk or Brian Danielson or both.
Okay.
I told Joe Koff, who I'm still friends with, and he gets maligned. Greg gets maligned, and that's another story. Everyone forgets that they got paid during the pandemic. Everybody forgets the positive things. Yes, we could all play Monday morning quarterback, but anyway, I said to Joe, "I know Punk." I said I could reach out to him and I did. I called him up. I didn't text him. And he was in LA doing something and may some kind of film work and I gave him Greg's number and vice versa, or Joe's number and nothing ever happened.
Wow. You actually approached Punk and were like, "Hey, if you're interested in Ring of Honor, I'd love to have you. Here's Joe's info."
Only because they asked me.
It's a lot of trust. It's a lot of trust in you, Cary.
Well, those guys, they were good guys. Yeah. Just like you were surprised and all that, I was too. Look, you know the guy probably much better than I do.
Well, but I know Punk a bit because I've spent time around him, but like you said, you knew him from day one in Ring of Honor, last day in Ring of Honor. When you were working with him in all that time, how was he to work with at Ring of Honor? Was he a good soldier?
He was fine. He was fine. Once in a while, just like all these guys, he would b**** and moan, but overall, he was good to me and good for the company. You were probably there in Chicago, a little boy, when he had his final match.
I lived in Texas. I grew up in Texas and I moved to Chicago.
All right. That was good. But he was emotionally connected to Ring of Honor at the time. When he came out, he was crying and it was... Yeah. Look, what I was going to say, you've gotten to know him. He's his own man and he is going to do what he wants, whether... That's it. He's going to do what he wants.
The Fight
Now, here's the other side of this thing. As much as you know Punk, I know you're really good friends with the Young Bucks. You talk about your children, Young Bucks I always viewed as your actual wrestling children. They're in a physical encounter with this guy. How do you react to a story like that, Cary, when you start to hear that it devolved into something like that?
Nobody knows what really happened and I reached out to Nick a couple days later, just to say, "You alright?" He says, "Yeah, I'm alright." And I haven't spoken to him since. I got to call these guys, see what the hell's going on. Listen, you know how life is. Your friendships come and go and they drift. I'll start quoting Jethro Tull on you, but I could name a couple Tull lines just about life and relationships. Some blossom, some splinter. Alright? I kept it simple.
Sure.
Matt and Nick, I love those guys, but they got multiple kids, chores. I don't want to speak for them. They're doing very well. I'm talking pre- this situation. They're doing very well but it's not like they're living in Beverly Hills. They have very nice homes and they deserve it. It's good. They earned it. But thanks for bringing that up, because I got to reach out to them. I don't know nothing. I mean, I literally don't know anything. You probably know more than me.
Well, I'm not asking. I'm just asking your reaction to hearing this story. You know all of these people. You've said they're family. They're like kids to you. As much as it's nice to see all the family raised up, these are important family members that it sounds like had a pretty bad squabble backstage.
Yeah. I'd like to know what happened. Listen, you know this. If this was the olden days or even back in my Ring of Honor, I'm thinking about this and between the time I was involved, and I was the sole owner, and then the Sinclair era, I never saw a fight backstage.
Reflecting On Running ROH
All right, into the mail bag here. Billy Donnelley wants to know, looking back with space and distance, are there things you wish you would have done differently along the way that may have put Ring of Honor on a different path? Do you wish you'd have done anything differently with Ring?
Yeah, but we were limited. Thinking back when we got the little deal with HDNet, Mark Cuban. I thought that was going to be a very good breakthrough. Wonderful people to deal with, wonderful. And they helped us for almost two years. The problem was and I didn't at the time, I should have done some more research, but I wouldn't have turned them down, no matter what, but they only had... 5% of the country could see them.
Right.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think they were a Dish Network product or a one of those and they didn't have any cable, very little to no cable penetration. Yeah, but look, I tried to do the best I could. I tried to do the best I could with what I had. As you know, I wanted to get out probably I realized by 2005 or certainly '06. As acclaimed as the wrestling was, it was a financial disaster. If it wasn't for me having a little success in the ticket business and me not having...
That was my family. I got plenty of friends, good friends who I love, and outside the wrestling business, but I didn't have a wife and kids. I was always borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. The ticket business was good at the time and it funded Ring of Honor. People think that. Oh, I lost so much money straight through, straight through. I think we've had this conversation before, but your little nephew who's in seventh grade, who knows a little bit about mathematics, would've looked at the Ring of Honor books in my era and say, "This isn't good."
ROH in the red
How much money do you think you spent or lost on Ring of Honor?
A lot.
How much is a lot? Millions?
Yes. Yes.
Tens of millions?
No. But here's the thing. Nick, I knew we had a good thing. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. I'd been watching wrestling since the late '60s and I'm not an expert about anything, but I knew we had a good thing. I also knew that we're not going to be able to compete with WWE. Why did I keep it open, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11? Because I knew we had a good thing. It was also passion, my passion for the product. It was also my ego that I didn't want to let go and it's like a failure. I was trying to find someone to buy the damn thing, which fortunately, due to Jim Cornette and Gary Jester, who knew Joe Koff, we were able to keep it alive. It's a wild story. It really is.
Well, I think I was going to say this before, but I never got to it, when you were talking about all my children and this. These guys, any of the names we've mentioned, most of them would've made it if there was no Ring of Honor but it gave a solid platform for these other companies because they were watching us like a hawk, even in 2005 and '06. It was crazy. I think Tyler Black would've been a success, as well the other laundry list of names, but it gave a nice playing field for these guys to be on and get some attention and it helped. I hope I answered the question.
ROH Enters A New Era
Nick Miller has a question here, how do you feel about Ring of Honor titles being regularly defended on AEW TV? Do you think it detracts from either AEW or Ring of Honor?
No. I mean, no. Until there's some kind of broadcast, whether it's YouTube or anything else, how else are you going to... I don't know if showcase is the right word. How else are you going to present this? What else would you do? It's a good thing.
Last question here comes from Jonathan Sanchez. I love this question. If/when Ring of Honor gets its TV deal or distribution deal, are you going to be involved on a weekly basis, Cary? What's your connection with Ring of Honor still? You sticking around? Will we be seeing you?
I don't have any. Naturally, I would like to come around. Yeah, there's been no discussions regarding that, but it would just be sort of nice to... It's like Old Timer's Day at Wrigley Field or Yankee Stadium. Oh, have Cary come by. Yeah, of course, but at the same time, I'm not looking to schlep around on a weekly or even a... I've just picked my spots. That was perfect, doing Arthur Ashe. That was perfect. And assuming there's an ROH pay-per-view coming up, I don't know. Do you know? I don't know.
I haven't seen anything announced about one, no.
Right. If there's one and it's geographically friendly to where I am and what I'm doing, I'd like to go. The answer is yeah, I would like to come around here and there.
Cool. Alright. Well, Cary, I want to thank you so much for the time, man. You promised me a very boring conversation and I actually really enjoyed this talk.
You're a good guy and thank you. We've known each other quite a while. It's a good thing.